We hit up the Supernatural press room and panel at this year's Comic-Con, and even though we didn’t get to speak to some of the cast members in the press room, we still had a great time. So let’s share with you a few things we learned from the press room first.
Castiel as God
With fans so worried about the state of Castiel after the season 6 finale of Supernatural, it’s no wonder that questions about him came up in the press room. Ben Edlund said that Castiel is still the new God and “his story is about stabilizing this God complex” and the “ramifications of what he’s done”. Ben also said that the season 7 premiere is almost like episode 23 of season 6, since the premiere follows so closely from the last episode, especially concerning what’s happening with Castiel. The season premiere will pick up seconds after the end of last season.
Castiel’s is a story of “absolute power” Edlund said, as well as one of pride. Edlund imagines that “redemption will be part of it”, although perhaps his path to redemption will be slightly tarnished.
Showrunner Sera Gamble wrote the premiere and she said the writers had a really great time discussing what each of them would do if they were God. Castiel has declared himself God, he’s “really pissed at his dad who never came home”, and the writers are having fun coming up with ideas of what Castiel would do with unlimited power. Jim Beaver said that what happens to Castiel is “so different from what the audience may expect”, but couldn’t elaborate any more.
To be honest, it kind of sounds like Castiel will be having his own storyline this season that may be slightly separate from that of the Winchesters (although I'm sure there will be overlap), but it didn’t sound like they will be killing Castiel anytime soon. I may turn out to be wrong about that as the season progresses, but right now I’m feeling pretty good about Castiel’s chances of staying on the show in at least a recurring capacity.
The Season-Long Arc
Supernatural will be getting a new “big bag” in season 7. Some of you might think that Castiel turns out to be a big bad, but it was sort of hinted that the big bad wouldn’t necessarily be Castiel, although he will certainly be causing problems. Jared said that Sam and Dean will be off on their own in season 7, on the road and on the run. The focus of the season will be back on the brothers.
Monsters of the week will again feature in season 7, but it seems like the big bad will be introduced very early on in the season - in episode 2, according to Beaver - and this new villain will also be a focus.
Beaver hinted that there will be “interesting geographical and infrastructure shifts in the show, so a lot of things that Sam, Dean and Bobby have counted on are going to get reshuffled.” Could it mean that something might happen to Bobby’s house and the boys lose their base of operations?
The Winchesters will have a very tough year in season 7. The writers will be taking away all of the old tricks and resources the brothers relied on for six seasons and now they’ll be “challenged as hunters” as Edlund said and will “have professional difficulties”.
Sam’s Struggles
Jared reminded us that Sam once again got left in a mess at the end of season 6. He has only read the first four episodes of the season, but Sam is in for some meaty stuff in season 7. We pick up at a run with everything concerning Sam.
Gamble said that we will start to see how Sam is really affected by the wall breaking in his head. The writers were really specific about what would happen to Sam if the wall broke. Both Castiel and Death warned of terrible repercussions of the wall coming down. Sam won’t be let off scott-free and what’s wrong with him will be a major storyline. What happens to Sam will be “a true break in someone’s psyche and maybe this is something that can never be fixed”. It will be a problem the boys haven’t faced before.
At the Nerd HQ panel with Jared later on in the day, he actually said that Sam would be very confused about what reality he is in - and even what year it is - as he suffers the effects of the broken wall.
Dean’s Problems
Dean will be dealing with a lot in the first part of the season. Not only will the brothers be worrying about each other, but Dean suffered a lot of loss in season 6. Gamble said “we find him in a place where he has a lot of soul searching to do and he has to ask himself why he does what he does in the face of what’s happened to him and all the things he and his brother have seen….we’ve brought him to a point where he has to ask himself why he’s a hunter, I think”.
Dean in particular will feel a profound betrayal about Castiel and his actions at the end of season 6. Sam may be more willing to cut Cas some breaks, but Dean truly feels that Castiel is lost to them, Gamble explained.
New and Returning Characters
I brought up the fact that so many characters have died on Supernatural, particularly in season 6, and wondered whether Sam and Dean would pick up a few new allies in season 7. Edlund said that the boys will definitely be meeting some new allies this year. As he jokingly put it “we need to repopulate so that we can kill more people”. They’ve already talked in the writers’ room about some new characters that the boys can relate to.
In particular, Gamble mentioned an old friend of Bobby’s that we will meet who is a bit of a conspiracy theorist. “A typical statement for him would be ‘yeah, yeah, yeah, there are shapeshifters, but the government created them’.” Sam and Dean will seek him out for help and will actually get caught in a booby trap in his house.
They confirmed the Twitter story that Alona Tal will be returning as Jo Harvelle in season 7, although we’re not really sure how she’ll return. Death will also be returning early in the season.
In addition, Kim Rhodes is returning as Sheriff Mills in an upcoming episode. By coincidence, Sherrif Mills will become involved with the season’s big bad and will ask for Bobby’s help. Beaver thinks she’ll “be around somewhat.”
On a side note, Jim Beaver said that Bobby will be in the first three episodes of season 7 and will likely be in as many episodes as he was last season.
Episode 7.03 - Jensen Directs
Colin Ford who has played young Sam will be returning in this episode. Dean will appear more in this episode than in “Weekend at Bobby’s”, but it will focus primarily on Sam. The episode will deal with a case that Sam worked on with Dean and John when they were younger. The elder Winchesters dropped Sam off at a motel and then kept calling him for research and help while they were working a case. Young Sam ended up meeting a girl (played by Jewel Staite as a adult).
A Return to Heaven
We’ve only really seen Heaven in two episodes, but you should expect to see to see it again in season 7 as we’ll be taking another trip there. We don’t know too many details yet about it because it’s early days, but Edlund said “there are visits to heaven already planned to tell various parts of the story. And I imagine that further into the season we’ll probably play more into it."
Potential Future Storylines
Last year Edlund and the others told us that we would see fairies in a future episode, but there was no definitive storyline or monster of the week that Edlund could tell us about this time. However, Edlund told us that he really hopes he can get Sam and Dean on a spaceship this year, but we’ll have to see if that comes to pass. We also chatted with him about a potential music episode (which he still hopes to do, even though it nearly killed Joss Whedon), as well as a potential animated or partially animated episode (which they’re trying to figure out how to do).
The End of the Series
Edlund says they have a general idea of how to end the series now that Kripke’s original five season ending was told, although plans can always change, as well as the length of time it takes to get there in case the season 7 is not the last.
To read about Jared's panel at Nerd HQ, click here.
clarissa @ tvovermind.com
twitter.com/clarissa373
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Thanks Clarissa. I'm interested in the comment that Sam may be more inclined to cut Castiel some slack rather than Dean, in light of other comments I've seen suggesting Sam will have problems with Cas during S7. I've always thought Sam of all people should have a deep understanding and sympathy for Cas essentially being between a rock and a hard place when it came to his choices. I'd like to see Dean also extending the blanket forgiveness he spoke of to Cas, as a de-facto brother, but it'd be nice if Sam could somehow pave the way for this and help reunite Dean and Cas. Of course that's assuming Cas does live. I feel more hopeful than I did but I'm still really worried about losing this character I've come to love just as much as the Winchesters and still feel strongly that they need other people in their lives. I really hope this season's inevitable bleakness doesn't include Dean losing Cas as well as everyone else outside of his brother.
Beautifully said and I couldn't agree more!!!
totally agree..really need to see this friendship back on the road…dean felt betrayed what about the feelings of castiel?
and for sam, i deeply hope that he will be the bound between dean and cass…i always wanna more friendship between sam and castiel, they passed throught the same path…sam was forgiven…what's about cass?
I can not wait for next season! Sounds great! And I have to say it – if they get Sam & Dean in a spaceship they'd better have them slow dancing with aliens. :)
So it looks like Cas gets handed off to Sam as well as well as Dean's previously dropped storylines. Good stuff. I'm done.
So, Gamble give Sam Dean's hell story in season 6. Give Sam Dean's Lisa/Ben story as well as Dean's PTSD's in season 7, and now gives Dean's friendship to Cas also to Sam. Gee Gamble, why don't you just fire Jensen, that way you can have the Sam Winchester Show without worrying about what to do with Dean.
What a disappointment. And to think that after the dismal season 6, Gamble is still in charge, and still willing to give Dean nothing to do but worry about Sam, and Sam everything. Screw you Gamble.
"now gives Dean’s friendship to Cas also to Sam"
I disagree, I think its the reverse. It shows that Sam is also Cas' friend but also Dean was hurt more so isn't going to forgive more and that means their bond is deeper than the friendship between Sam and Cas. That's my interpretation at least.
just wait and see before judging Gamble…dean is more hurt by his lost than sam who was not so deep friendship with cass…i think that cass has also a feeling of treason…don't lose that…sam had made the same mistake than cass , he can understanding him more than dean…but i think that dean needs to find his friend back…he needs to forgiven him..because he must remembered that cass did that for a good reason and in memories of the past…
My thoughts excactly. Can this show be more redundant! Nothing new and fresh here. Sam is getting all of Deans storylines! I really don`t see how anyone can be blind to this!!!
I cannot believe how they are giving everything to Sam. I cannot stand Sera Gamble and I simply cannot watch this show anymore because of what she's doing to it. Please don't re-sign, Jensen. They don't appreciate you. I'm beggin you.
Yes to what Cindy says!!
I have to say, this sounds fantastic. I was really hoping that they would actually go with the Castiel is God plot-line, and I'm keeping my fingers crossed that they don't go the redemption route too soon. I'd be happy if he just settled in and enjoyed his new life as an all-powerful being.
I'm loving all the Sam plot-lines, though I hope he doesn't forgive Castiel too quickly. While he might be able to relate with what Castiel is going through, Castiel still treated him as utterly insignificant, really only using him as a tool to blackmail Dean into inaction, and it was only Dean he assured Sam's future safety to. So I think Sam should be legitimately mad at Castiel for awhile.
I hope that Dean stops going through the whole "do I want to be a hunter" thing yet again! I'm tired of the hand-wringing, and would love to see the return of Dean who loved what he did and made no apologies for it. Maybe a love interest with him and Jo would help — I think those two are a much better match than he and Lisa were.
On the whole, great spoilers!
Jo's dead, remember? Can't anyone who's died, particularly in the heroic manner she did, stay dead for once?
At least they are starting to give us a little hope for Castiel, although it is probably just to shatter those hopes later on (as usual). I don't like all the repetitive story lines that I see emerging and I don't like that Sam seems to be becoming the center of everything yet again. Sometimes I wonder if it's "Supernatural" or "The Sam Show". I've been a devoted fan of the show for a while, whether or not I liked the direction that the show was taking and I will give season 7 a chance, but I hope they do the right thing for all the viewers, not just the ones that want "A Season of Sam".
The season 6 premiere was all about Dean, and Sera wrote that herself. IMTOD was mostly about Dean in season 2. Season 3 was all about Sam worrying over Dean going to hell. And wasn't season 2 about Sam worrying over Dean's reaction to John's death, etc?
If Sam is getting attention now, it is only making up for lost time from previous seasons. In season 4, Dean got both the plot and the emotional arc. While Sam got spat on and blamed and hated for everything. How was that fair to Sam or his fans, who never got a full Sam storyline in season 3?
Sam's hell storyline is completely different from Dean's, on just about every level. No stealing is going on here. Because of Soulless Sam, in fact, it's taken an entire season in order to even get to Sam's hell storyline at all.
I'm happy it's finally arrived.
I'm disappointed to the point of giving up on this show, like many others are. Why is there once again no storyline for Dean? Why is Sera Gamble getting away with ignoring one of her main characters, once again?
Did you even ask her, Clarissa? Or perhaps one of the other reporters? Because it's becoming quite the elephant in the room and the fact that nobody involved with this show, including the bloggers/journalists covering this show, dares to question her decision to once again completely ignore and insult Dean and Jensen Ackles raises a lot of questions. And after 1,5 year of nothing for Dean I feel we really deserves some answers.
It is far too early to judge what kind of a storyline Dean will have this season. They addressed Sam's storyline because it isn't really a spoiler to tell us about it since we saw it in the season finale. But we don't know exactly what will happen to Dean. Maybe it ties into the big bad, which they couldnt tell us much about without giving it away.
I agree with what Samantha said above about earlier seasons focusing heavily on Dean, and Sam getting some stronger story lines at this point. This show is about both brothers.
Finally, if Jensen is happy to continue working on Supernatural then we can't say that the writers are insulting him. He is closest to Dean and if he is happy to continue with the show with the material that he is given, we should respect that.
I remember that people kept saying that during S6 also, that it's too early to judge but in the end we got nothing. Would it kill them to give us some spoilers redarding Dean? Would it be so impossible to give Dean even an semblance of a storyline?
I also see that you're the one making this a Sam vs. Dean discussion so allow me. Even if it's true that the earlier seasons were Dean-heavy (an opinion that's highly debatable in my view), Sam always had his own storyline, as did Castiel.This is not about not wanting a storyline for Sam or Castiel, this is about the fact that once again a main character on the show, ie., Dean, has nothing and is being ignored by the showrunner and producers, once again.
The complete silence surrounding Dean, the fact that nobody of TPTB is even willing to talk about him, raises a lot of questions and frankly I'm surprised the media is not questioning this also.
I don't agree that Dean had stronger storylines. IMO, Sam has ALWAYS had the stronger storylines. Jensen just makes the most of the secondary and weaker storylines(which, barring S4 and part of 5, have always been strictly emo, while Sam, IMO, has had the plot and emo-whether some want to admit that or not-in every single season)that he's predominantly been given. And this is getting old to many. I will add that screen time is a different matter from storylines, and I will agree that their screen time is more balanced, but storylines?-Dean has never had a supernatural, myth-arc storyline that was carried through on. And while, if he's happy with things, I AM glad for Jensen, *I* would still like to see Dean in a better storyline than just angsting over other characters-and it would seem from the boards, that so too, would many others.
And I also wish someone would address this the next time there ia an opportunity to talk with Ms. Gamble.
Don't know why my 1st reply fell through so here's my 2nd attempt. If this leads to a double comment, I apologize.
In S6 the same excuse was used, to be patient and wait but we ended up with nothing. Would it kill them to give us some spoilers regarding Dean? Would it be so hard to give the other main character a storyline also?
I see you're the one making this into a Sam vs. Dean discussion so allow me. Even if the earlier seasons were Dean-heavy (an opinion that's highly debatable in my view), Sam always had his own storyline. This is not about not wanting a storyline for Sam, this is about wanting something for Dean. But, once again he's being ignored by the showrunner and producers.
Frankly, the unwillingness of TPTB to address this issue and the complete silence that's surrounding Dean raises a lot of questions and I'm surprised the media isn't questioning this. Finally, Jensen Ackles seeming happy tells us nothing, I know you know that too. I also remember Jensen wishing for a solid storyline for Dean in S7, we should respect that wish also.
Here we go again with the character bashing.
I for one a glad to see Sam finally getting an emotional arc that does not include worrying over Dean's reaction to their father's death, going to hell or coming back from hell. Which ll these rabid fangirls seem to have forgotten.
WTH show have they been watching?
Face it, this show has two leads, it's not supposed to be only about Dean. And it has never been only about Sam. Maybe this is S4 for Sam. Haven't you lot realized it's about two brothers and one destiny in 6 years?
Well, if it is S4 for Sam then he should have to table his hell trauma, for the most part, because of something bigger that's happening with Dean, because that's what happened to Dean's hell trauma in S4-which other rabid fangirls here seem to have forgotten.
But then again, it's kind of easy to forget Dean's hell when it was like "Graceland" compared to Sam's.
I get we only have spoilers for the first few episodes and that my worry about Dean may be a bit premature, but I find that from past experience when they don't mention something it isn't because they are hiding something big but that they have nothing to hide.
In an interview Jensen was asked point blank what Dean's individual arc was and Jensen said he didn't know but around episode 6,7,8 they may start dealing with individual arcs, but that contradicts spoilers that we have.
Sam and Cas's individual arcs start right away. Ben, Sera, Misha, Jared and Jensen can talk about what's coming up for Sam and Cas. Yet no one can say anything about Dean other than he does some soul searching which was what he was supposed to do last year, so I don't have much faith in TPTB to actually explore this. It would be something I would actually like to see if its done in a way that actually starts to build Dean' self-esteem instead of tearing it down farther.
They even teased that something was coming up for Crowley. So even if they can't tell us what Dean's arc will be why can't they drop a few hints like they did for every other character?
We does having patience actually be rewarded?
…earlier seasons focusing heavily on Dean…
Um…no. I really like you Clarissa I appreciate your SPN texts but this statement simply is not true. Honestly, I don't even know why anyone would say this because it's been exactly the opposite! And it's not Dean vs Sam debate. I'd like to think of myself as bi bro, but I have to say than even my 'Samgirl' friends have disagreed with the statement. We're not talking about screen time here; in all honesty, the fact that Ackles had so much screen time without actually having anything really badass and exciting to do past season caused more harm to his character than fun 'soullessness' to Sam's. A good example of BOTH brothers having equal share of the arc was season 4. (BTW one of Jared's AND Jensen's favourite seasons). Both characters were key to saving the world. Well until it turned out, it was, in fact, only Sam that's indispensable… I agree with all of you that say every successful story line has been given to Sam. Dean's story line for season 6 …well….breaking up with a girlfriend… (Yes, I'm oversimplifying).
Finally, because I really like facts (part of my job…), I asked my students to write essays about fandoms vs showrunners, perception vs facts (in media). Some of them chose SPN. An interesting tidbit: one of my students collected all (available online) interviews by Sera and Co.(including Kripke)since the beginning of season 5. I don't remember the exact numbers, naturally, but the results were clear: Sam's character has been given about 80% of the coverage (i.e. speculating, explaining etc…). So, no, the characters are not, and have not been treated equally even though the show is supposed to be about BOTH brothers. It simply isn't.
2 more points:
1. look at FRINGE. 3 characters are indispensable parts of the major arc. Emotional support is provided by secondary characters. The main characters ACTIVELY create the arc, the story. Olivia doesn't just support Peter or his father in their quests.
2. Probably controversial, true nonetheless, piece of observation. 82% of my students were pro- Dean. Does it mean anything? Does it reflect the general audience preferences? Maybe not. But if yes…
So you don't think that season 3, for example, which saw both brothers trying to get Dean out of his deal wasn't heavily focused on Dean? Yes, Sam WAS the one who tried various tactics to save Dean, but I think that season 3 was heavily Dean driven.
Season 3 Sam spent a lot of time trying to figure out what was wrong with Dean and how to save him, while in season 6 Dean was the one trying to do the saving. In a sense, both seasons had one brother "in danger", if you will, while the other was trying to "save him". But I would argue that the person who needed to be saved in each season was the focus. Do you disagree?
I'm sorry but I disagree that the focus of season 3 was only on saving Dean.
Have you forgotten the introduction of Ruby, the Boy King storyline and the beginning of the corruption of Sam?
Dean's trip to Hell was nothing more than the catalyst for Sam's Fall. Yes they both worried about it and Sam spent a bit of time trying to save Dean while Dean angsted but that was, once again the emotional arc, while the Sam was at the center and the driving force of the plot like he always is.
The entire mytharc was about Sam becoming corrupted, releasing Lucifer and then redeeming himself by saving the world.
Dean's role has never been anything more than an excuse for Sam to start down that slippery slope, then to be a red herring in Sam's story and finally a way to ensure that the blame got spread around.
Interestingly, while Dean gets equal blame for breaking the seals and Lucifer, he does not get to share the glory. Dean's entire part in saving the world was to drive the car to the cemetery and get beaten almost to death.
Dean was easily replaced by Adam and Sam's toy soldier. Sam could not have been replaced in the five year arc at any point in the story. That makes Sam the primary character and Dean secondary at best.
Last season, he wasn't even that because Castiel's story was more important than Dean's. While Dean, once again, had the role of mother hen, angsting over Lisa/Ben/Sam and then Castiel. At least they allowed him to save Sam but even that was tainted by the wall and the questions around whether Dean was right to even same him. No untarnished glory for Dean and always the spectre of potentially screwing up. Why? Because his role is always nothing more than to service Sam's story.
Clarissa, you say that you are a Dean girl so I have to ask, does it really not bother you how completely focused Sera Gamble is on Sam and how completely she disinterested she is in talking about Dean?
When Jensen himself says straight out that there is no arc for the Dean this year and thinks there maybe only be a possiblity of something later down the line, how does that not raise questions in your mind?
I can understand Sam fans not caring, but I confess that I am baffled that people who call themselves fans of Dean just don't give a damn that he is becoming more and more of a sidekick every year.
Muse, your posts are awesome and you've said everything that the Dean fans have been worried about. You've managed to tell it like it is very eloquently and I just wish you could send your posts to the PTBs who seem to think that all fans want the Sam Winchester Show. No, a major portion of fans are tired of the Sam Winchester show and are waiting for something important for Dean.
Sadly, Kripke once again has made Gamble the showrunner, even after the dismal failure of season 6. Truly, Dean has no champion to fight for him outside of Jensen, and Jensen seems to have nobody on his side.
How sad for such a great character and such a fine actor and human being.
Good posts!!! Dean who is the theme for season 7, as it was in season 6. Sera is a cheerleader for padalecki and sam, no doubt about that. Clarissa, excuse me for saying so, but I doubt you are without bias either. I don`t mean no disrespect, it is just an observation.
Do I wish Dean would get some additional focus in later seasons? Sure I do. But I also don't believe that he has never been the focus of any season, so I think I, like you, am entitled to my own opinion. I strongly believe Dean's journey, transformation and circumstances were the focus of many earlier seasons. Obviously we don't agree about that and will not see eye to eye, so what is the point of continuously talking in circles about it?
Could Dean get a stronger storyline in season 7? I'm going to reserve judgment on that until we see more. Castiel's storyline is directly related to Dean since he obviously feels the loss at a more acute level than Sam or Bobby and I personally think that Dean could end up being the catalyst for Castiel's redemption whenever that may happen. But, again, I am prepared to see what happens.
I've stated numerous times that I like Dean as a character above others, but that doesn't mean that I can't like both characters and the actors who play them. Just because someone may have a slightly differing opinion then you doesn't mean you should automatically know what side they are on or berate them for their choices. Nor should you assume they are "wrong" because they don't share your views.
This in-fighting among fans accomplishes nothing. We all love the same show, so why all the hostility? And if you don't like the show anymore, then you simply don't have to watch it. Or if fans want to continue to watch the show and have their concerns heard, then they should find a better way to express their thoughts than simply insulting the showrunner or the actor/character they don't like. Of course, not everyone who has posted a comment has done so, but I'm seeing it far more often lately.
In any event, let's stop making this discussion personal or so accusatory. Everyone has a valid personal viewpoint. I really like the comments on my Supernatural posts, but am getting increasingly wary about the Sam v. Dean in-fighting.
And to Missy above, with all due respect, it would be nice if you don't assume that I have a bias simply because I don't agree whole-heartedly with your position. I'm not trying to attack you because you were clearly attempting to be polite, but there is nothing about this discussion about Sam and Dean that should be personal, nor should we assume someone's position.
My original post above simply stated what I heard in the press room. I didn't provide any opinions on the information beyond some general comments about Castiel. And the few comments I have made is not intended to represent my final and absolute opinion on anything. If you want to have a real discussion about this topic, then email me instead of posting a comment about how I must not be on your side or I clearly have a bias simply because I'm not advocating your position.
This is a television show, folks. If you want to discuss plotlines and motivations, I am always up for that and could probably discuss them for hours. But if every conversation is going to end in an us vs. them argument then I'm going to have to adopt the Mo Ryan rule of "no SamGirl/DeanGirl arguments".
I am confused by your own hostility towards me. Are you assuming that I am the other poster in this thread. Well I'm not.
But I do find it ironic that you say I am being accusatory when I merely responded in kind to your comment to the previous poster:
"So you don’t think that season 3, for example, which saw both brothers trying to get Dean out of his deal wasn’t heavily focused on Dean? Yes, Sam WAS the one who tried various tactics to save Dean, but I think that season 3 was heavily Dean driven.
Season 3 Sam spent a lot of time trying to figure out what was wrong with Dean and how to save him, while in season 6 Dean was the one trying to do the saving. In a sense, both seasons had one brother “in danger”, if you will, while the other was trying to “save him”. But I would argue that the person who needed to be saved in each season was the focus. Do you disagree?"
There was plenty of latent hostility as well as factual inaccuracy in that post and I responded. You claimed that season 3 was only about Dean's deal and that is patently untrue which is why I pointed out Sam's own storyline about his powers.
But it is clear that you are not interested in view points different from your own. You can couch it in samgirl vs. deangirl as most who are invested in maintaining access to the show and its stars, but it seems clear that your primary goal is shutting down opposing viewpoints.
Muse, my reply was intended to be more general in nature and not directed specifically at you (although it did happen to be part of the thread – the ability to "reply" to a comment can sometimes be weird in this type of plugin – like now, when it won't let me reply to your specific response). And my "latent hostility" was frustration.
You say my post contained "factual inaccuracy" when really it's a matter of viewpoint. I think earlier seasons focused more on Dean (and both the brothers, actually) but you disagree. We disagree. Other people in these comments disagree. People can disagree all they want but what's frustrating (and this part is not about you) is when fans engage in endless back and forth arguing and name-calling.
I like it when people have constructive discussions about fandoms. I quite like Harmony's analysis of the seasons below (even if her introduction left something to be desired – which she later apologized for). If an opposing side wanted to put forward a careful analysis I'd be happy to read it as well. I read all the comments posted and only occasionally reply, but I am listening to the discussion.
You say I'm not interested in viewpoints besides my own but I also don't think that you're going to change your mind about your viewpoints (that's not meant to be hostile, simply an observation). You have your opinions and I have mine and, unfortunately, they don't coincide. Is that a bad thing? No. It simply means we have not convinced each other. So let's simply agree to disagree and put it behind us.
Sam began his slide to the beige side with Ruby's help while Dean got sex and cheeseburgers.
IMHO not very equitable storylines.
Yes, it means that your students see your bias and are licking your butt.
To even bring a show one is fanatical about into a classroom is Holy Mother of God – embarrassing to me. To expect unbiased reports is even more embarrassing. Poor students.
Luckily they've figured you out.
No wonder the schooling in US sucks.
O.O WOW…. :
I feel you are missing the point. What was said was facts, what you read is your own bias against facts.
Oh, just a quick annotation to the last point: the students were forced to choose between 2 brothers (mean, I know…) There was not an option: BOTH.
Great post. Both you and muse have expressed what Gamble and Kripke refuse to admit, that the show is not about two brothers, but about Sam and Sam is practically a Marty Stu of perfection while Dean, the more interesting character, is being pushed in the background in order to make Sam more visible.
Anyway, very eloquently said and I wish you would send these thoughts to the PTBs who seem to feel that the Dean fans don't deserve the same consideration as the Sam fans.
I hope you're joking, and that you didn't really make your students work on something to prove your own fannish point. I might understand the point of the exercise if it focused on shows you feel indifferent about and so have no vested interest in the result.
I've grown disenchanted with SPN over the last year, because seasons 5 and 6 were very bad and made poor use of both terrific leads (Dean AND Sam, both are wonderful) and both awesome supporting characters (Bobby and Cas). The batshit factions for each character, especially both brothers, don't help either.
IA about the batshit factions not helping, but batshit does not equal simply liking one character and actor better than the other and wanting to see him get some meatier storylines because of that.
Dean's popularity is heavily linked to how much face time, speeches, and endless weeping over himself that he's done over the course of the show. Most of the point of view, the music, the funny lines, and the car, belong to Dean. And he dresses and talks like a bad boy, even though he's not one, so he's actually the safe and sensible brother that you can mother like a little boy instead of a man. Dean getting almost all the humor in the first seasons was enough to garner more audience popularity. The cartoon character nearly always wins out over the straight man character, and on this show, Sam is the straight man. Of course, Dean has been more popular. He's been designed to fit certain perimeters, and you notice how they almost never budge Dean very far from them. You can call it iconic or you can all it Flanderizing. Believe it or not, like it or not, but the writers did try and break Dean out of his usual space by setting up the Domesticated Dean concept. Some liked Lisa/Ben and some didn't. I did not, because it was too easy to just hand another family over to Dean; I felt it was a cheat. At any rate, I think I got what they were trying for. They took Sam's soul away from him, his feelings, his empathy, and his conscience. So, to create contrast between the brothers, you increase the softer and nuclear family ties of a "typical" family for Dean. Like Danny on Hawaii Five-O. The normal guy with the family is the contrast with the slightly scary military trained guy. In this case, Sam is a soulless hunter. It was a contrast thing, an experiment in mixing Sam and Dean up and turning things upside down for awhile. And there was a LOT of Dean in the beginning and end of season 6. And in season 5, Sam spent half his time silently watching Dean talk and speechify, only getting to say "me, too" every so often. Sam's redemption story was being Dean's silent yes boy, and Dean didn't even truly forgive Sam until Sam was going to die and burn in hell forever. Dean holds onto his grudges for dear life. He can't even forgive Sam's childhood choices! I was so appalled by the pettiness of that episode. At any rate, I thought it was stupid to have Lisa there only to break up with Dean every time they met. But the characterization was real and was meant to put Dean in a certain emotional place. It was an actual character arc, whatever else you think of it. Dean's emotional arcs are given paramount importance on SPN, more so than Sam's mytharcs, characterization, and plot roles.
Do you know what it feels like to have your favorite character constantly cut out of episodes and scenes because none of the writers seem to think his feelings and reactions matter to anything or anyone on this show, not even Dean? Terrible, it feels terrible. I have waited 6 years, 6 looooong years, to finally see the writers take Sam's emotional life as seriously as Dean's. It is about damn time, and I am ready and yes, happy about it. Sam deserves every sweet second of this attention, and so do his long-suffering fans.
Sam's broken psyche is a concept completely different from anything done with Dean's hell sl, which was mainly used to launch the angels onto the show. So, if you didn't like how they handled Dean then, blame the angels as the writers' new shiny toy, but don't blame Sam for finally getting noticed after years in the emotional desert.
Sammycat, aka the Jensen hater who's been figured out by everyone on the internet except the mods at SN.TV who have to let you post because they've driven everyone off the site and will lose their playground if the hits get low enough;
See how my very first line was insulting, biased, and wordy? You'd have much better luck convincing people your brand of crazy makes sense if you didn't show your underwear in the first line. Heed my advice, and maybe you'll stop needing so many sock accounts to talk to your biggest fan, kyelinn, aka samislarger. Neither one of you is as smart as you think you are, so you should just stick to sites where Smiley faces can do your talking for you.
Why is there such a problem with the author saying she's a Deangirl because she has a different POV? Is she not allowed to be one? I know of many who considered themsleves Deanfans who don't love Castiel or the angel/Heaven/Hell/apocalypse storyline. Shocking, I know. It doesn't surprise me that some can't acknowledge that everyone views the show differently and for different reasons. She has every right to call herself a Deangirl if she so chooses.
…I hope you’re joking, and that you didn’t really make your students work on something to prove your own fannish point….
Ok. Let's make it clear. "Fandom, fanfiction as subculture, the interdependence between the fans and creators etc.' is what is analyzed. At the beginning, each class chooses the fandom they think is the craziest, most interesting, most active etc. (I believe Clarissa's survey some time ago also proved that SPN is one of the most active fandoms). MY STUDENTS MADE THE DECISION, I WAS NOT EVEN AWARE OF EXISTENCE OF THE SHOW CALLED SUPERNATURAL BEFORE THAT. What convinced me to include SPN was a heated debate between the so-called' Samgirls vs Deangirls' (even though both fractions include male students) at the beginning of the course. It was then that the "who do you prefer Dean or Sam' poll was organized (that's why I didn't include Castiel – let me repeat: I did not know anything about the show then!). The results were as stated above. And the whole point was to try to analyze the whys, the numbers and fact behind emotions, the intentions of the showrunners vs actors' charisma…etc. SO, IN A WAY, ONE MIGHT SAY, IT WAS MY STUDENTS BIAS THAT INFLUENCED MY DECISION to discuss SPN and NOT vice versa. I pride myself in trying to stay objective and having my own opinion and after having seen all of the episodes I happen to agree with the majority of my students. In terms of the structure of the story and the indispensability of the characters, the Show has not been equal. You could replace Dean with e.g Sam's girlfriend or sister (someone he cares about) and the outcome would be the same, the story would be similar. Sam is the chosen one, the necessary one. Dean was the one ( together with Sam) in season 4 and part of 5 but then well, we went back to: "Sam is the only one to stop Lucifer". Why my saying this is considered 'fannish'. I don't know. Why 'fannish' has become so pejorative is for another discussion. Maybe my using the fandom 'slang' ( such as my Samgirls etc.) inspired all the condescending (and rude) remarks, I don't know, I was simply trying to 'blend in' because yes, indeed, thanks to my students, I became a fan. Let me just tell you, all my students, at the end of the course, got good grades but – more importantly – were able to discuss the show using arguments and facts AS WELL AS emotional appeal and agree that differences can be a beautiful thing. The biggest 'crime' in my class is not to have your own opinion or try to IMPOSE (as opposed to try to 'convince' using arguments) your own opinion on others. Believe it or not, all the Samfans and Deanfans have become friends.
Wow. What a great lesson. We could all learn something from this post. Kudos and I wish I'd had a teacher like you and I'm being serious here. And I also think you're owed an apology by a couple of posters here. Not sure if you'll get it, but it's still owed, IMO.
I'm seeing alot of serious dissatisfaction among Dean fans lately. And I mean the normal ones, not the extremists. Everyone is worried about Cas fans leaving, and rating droping… Enough Dean fans get bored and move on, the show is dead.
I see little evidence that the show is aware of the "moving on now" trend, because it's quieter than the Cas fans, but ever more deadly.
Laurie F, I've been coming across the same thing lately: more and more frustrated fans who are thinking about giving up on the show because they feel that the show runners' blatant preoccupation with Sam is never going to change. A lot of them were banking on hearing even some small tidbit about Dean during Comic Con, as a sign of good faith that Sera really doesn't see him as the sidekick who's only important in how he props up Sam's epic saga. Well, we got nothing. I guess there's something to be said that those in charge have stopped pretending. To them, Dean is funny and occassionally badass but at the end of the day, he's just Sam's nanny and the chauffeur. Yeah, I'm bitter. What a waste of a remarkable character.
I also wouldn't be surprised to see a decline in ratings as those fans realize that Dean the person being recognized as equally important to the core of the show as supernatural, plot driving Sam, is a lost cause. And imo, it'd be so sad if the show lost enough viewers to be cancelled over something that could be such an easy fix, if only Sera cared enough to try.
To them, Dean is funny and occassionally badass but at the end of the day, he’s just Sam’s nanny and the chauffeur. Yeah, I’m bitter. What a waste of a remarkable character.
Yeah, I`m bitter too. I never hated sam before. I enjoyed a show that was about two brothers. Now it is only about sam and Dean who!
This is how I feel. I'm not an extreme fan at all. I love both brothers and Cas but I'm sorry to say I feel very dissatisfied with Dean's lack of a storyline. Don't get me wrong – I'm happy to see him being there for Sam and supporting Sam. But I'm at the point where this is old news to me. It's making me think of Sera's comments before the season 6 finale when all she could say about Dean was that he'd be there in the background being an awesome big brother. I know that about him already – and is it really all there is for him? And while it's easy for people to advise us to wait and see: we did that in season 6.
I started watching this as a show about two brothers but all I can say is that at this point I'm starting to sympathise with the more extremem Dean fans who are voicing their frustration here and everywhere these days, it seems. I've watched Sera's interview and I simply can't believe that yet again we are heading into a season where the chief storyline seems to be "what's wrong with Sam". After six previous seasons of that I don't quite see how she can claim it's fresh or new.
Sorry for the downer but I'm losing interest more and more. I never thought I'd say this but I am thinking I might not watch live in season 7 since I'm also a big fan of Fringe. I definitely don't think I'll watch live if Cas is written out since it just looks like more of the same without him.
It's true. I disagree that the early seasons were Dean heavy at all. Season 1 was supposed to be all about Sam and the "Secret of Sam". It's just that Jensen is the stronger actor and managed to steal just about every scene he was in mostly because the writers didn't entirely realize it until it was too late. They didn't give Dean anything special, he just managed to do a lot with nuance and silences and expressions.
After that, in Season 2, we started to hear about the infamous role reversals(aka "Take from Dean and give to Sam", very rarely did it work the other way around except when they wanted someone share Sam's blame in something). There were even times when they seemed to try and copy actual scenes and usually by cutting Dean out of the scenario as much as possible.
Almost every season since they have tried to sell some sort of ridiculous idea about role reversals, usually while trying to take many of Dean's most interesting and/or admirable and/or popular qualities and shift them over to Sam, sometimes while trying to take them away from Dean. And in all of them, except possibly Season 4, Dean was only used to set up more of Sam's storyline, as the poster "muse" mentioned above.
Jensen as an actor has had screen time but that is not the same as the show being "about Dean" and that's what is galling. He is supposed to be an EQUAL LEAD and treated as an equal lead. He should be as pivotol to creating the main mytharc storylines and also resolving the main mytharc storylines as the OTHER EQUAL LEAD, but he isn't(as cryw mentioned in point#1 at the bottom of her first post).
In fact his only pivotol mytharc storyline ever was taken away after a bare season and a half of development and given to some lousy "back up" one time appearance half brother character they pulled out of the wood work in Season 4(in the appropriately titled "Jump the Shark", not a bad episode in and of itself but in what it represents, it's as bad as any Cousin Oliver).
I won't "wait" because that's what happened in Season 5 and Season 6 and yes, Dean's storyline was taken away(in Season 5) and in Season 6 he had no storyline to speak of, beyond supporting Special Sammy, in whatever form he appeared in, soulless or otherwise.
Also Sera isn't being entirely truthful. She talked about not wanting to be redundant, well giving Sam the Hell storyline they almost completely ignored when Dean went there first(unless they could use it to somehow make him look bad or weak or have other characters call him nasty names) and having Dean once again wondering about the hunting life and once again giving us "What's wrong with Sam". That's redundant. Monsters with different rules? That's another failed storyline from last season. That's redundant. It's like they think somehow they'll "get it right this time" but it's even worse than the time before.
Also Sam's always gotten plenty of speeches and plenty of emotional exposition. He's had whole episodes dedicated just to getting us inside his psyche, he's given us speech after speech about being a freak and whatever else and how he needs to do what he needs to do. He's had flashbacks episodes just to tell us what he did during the summer hiatus, two of the most recent childhood flashback episodes(possibly three if the one Jensen's directing is what it seems to be) have strongly focused on Sam and Sam's feelings. We've always been given plenty of insight into Sam's feelings, Sam's always had plenty of opportunity to air his feelings and tell us his feelings.
IMO the difference is plain and simple – there are other issues which keep them from being as powerful and memorable as some of Dean's scenes.
I'm failing to see any reason to give this a chance.
I think asha sums it up perfectly. There is nothing new, nothing interesting and no reason to watch.
Dean fans and Sam fans who say they will not watch another episode if they don't get what they want …always do. So as Dean would say…shut your pie hole.! I'am betting THAT season 7, ….will be better than Gambles first lackluster season 6. Hey Gambles I still want to know why you brought in the Campbells , only to destroy them and tarnish grampa Samuel..who I still like .
Tell that to the 3.72 million viewers we've lost since the series premier or the .93 million we lost last season alone.
SamFans have gotten plenty of insight into Sam feeling and wants, they just don't want to believe what they hear and see.
I agree. sam fans has had a lot of possibilities to get insight in sams feelings and thoughts. Maybe padalecki isn`t skilled enough to make hsi fans feel and see them?
Sam fans do a lot of guessing about Sam and always have done. He doesn't get the dialogue, he doesn't get the scenes, that really explain his character. Sam is the only character on the show with no side characters attached to him; Bobby and Cas mostly interact with Dean, or at least 'favor' Dean, and the show has come out and said that with lines from Bobby and Castiel. Sam hardly even gets to talk to Dean about things anymore, either. Dean nearly always has his motivations and feelings laid out for the audience in bright red crayon, written on an anvil. There is simply a different writing approach for the two brothers. Sam does have feelings and wants but they are often couched in very ambiguous terms, and even in negative terms (the season 4 approach to Sam). Sam is the one character on the show where the writers are pretty fearless about letting him be disliked for things. He's paid a price for that attitude, and so have his fans.
As for Jared's acting, maybe there is a reason they are giving him more and more material lately. He's matured as an actor by this point, and he clearly likes challenging material and even dark and scary material for his character.
The supernatural links to Sam have nearly always been dark and tied to evil. He's never been treated like a super hero at any point on the show, not even in Swan Song. Why there is unending jealousy over Sam having this aspect of the show is beyond me. It's just the basic character set up. No matter what happens, you still have a show about two brothers. Dean met Sam on that battlefield in Swan Song. He was there right with Sam. And Sam needed Dean to gain the strength to defeat Lucifer. It was about Dean choosing Sam and Sam choosing Dean. Pretty simple, but you need both boys for that to work.
Both sides really need to STFU. Seriously. It gets really old every website I go to, every article I read, there's endless comments that are nothing but bitching and complaining about Sam vs Dean and bashing the show writers. And so many Dean fans are quick to throw Gamble under the bus but then they also outline their dislike for how Dean has been treated basically since episode 1, so isn't that saying you dislike what Kripke did for the show too? And Kripke is still very much involved and has say in what goes on in the show he's just not at the helm anymore.
Let me outline something that I think 'almost' the entire fandom is blind to: the show is called Supernatural and it's about TWO brothers hunting the supernatural. That's it, end of story. That's exactly what they have done every single season. Regardless of what twists or curves are thrown at us to make it interesting it's still just about Sam and Dean dealing with things beyond the ordinary and that has actually come to include each other (what normal humans have died more than once like they have?). I love the show so don't get me wrong with this next part but unfortunately for the most part both Sam and Dean fit into little plastic character molds and fans have come to expect that and whenever the show does try to break the molds a bit fans get pissy so they go right back to the rules and limitations. This applies to both Sam AND Dean. Dean is the awesome, cool, funny, badass, older brother. Sam is the smart but sometimes annoying, younger brother with the straight man attitude and tendencies towards needing anger management and turning towards the darkside.
Now for the character arcs of each season which everyone seems so inclined to complain about depending on which brothers' side they are on.
Season 1: Both boys searching for their Dad. Really that's all it was, most of the season was MOTW format.
Big bad: Azazel (yellow-eyes)
Dean's story plot – looking for Dad, dealing with Sam's visions
Dean's emotional plot – arguing with Sam about their Dad and being the "good soldier"
Sam's story plot – looking for Dad, having visions
Sam's emotional plot – dealing with the death of his girlfriend, fighting with Dean about their Dad and how things should be done
My opinion: Seems pretty even on both sides to me. In fact you can't even argue season 1 had any heavy storyarc for Sam besides dealing with the emotional issues of losing Jess and leaving school considering that a heavy focus on his visions and connections to Azazel only occurred in one episode, "Nightmare"
Season 2: The psychic kids and hunt for yellow-eyes.
Big bad: Azazel (yellow-eyes)
Dean's story plot – hunting down yellow-eyes to get revenge for their Dad, figuring what's up with Sam and the psychics
Dean's emotional plot – dealing with Dad's death and finding out about the deal that was made for him, fear that Sam will go evil because of what their dad told him
Sam's story plot – hunting down yellow-eyes to get revenge for their Dad, figuring what's up with himself and the other psychics
Sam's emotional plot – dealing with Dean's emotional issues about their Dad's death and eventually having to deal with their father's words about him turning evil
My opinion: Again seems pretty even. I think where many fans get divided is the fact that Sam has a supernatural attribute and Dean doesn't. Yes it makes Sam "special" as so many people like to point out but it's not a wanted feature. Sam hates it and hates himself for it, Dean doesn't like it and mistrusts Sam for it and would never want anything special for himself. He even gets annoyed with Bobby for even suggesting he might have had "some sort of vision" during All Hell Breaks Loose part 1. I'd even say he was indignant and probably very glad it turned out to be just another psychic's powers affecting him, not some sort of abilities of his own. We continue to see this as the series progresses where Dean dislikes anything unnatural with his brother and his storylines are grounded in being against all things abnormal since he's a hunter, while Sam has abilities and comes to try to embrace them. It is meant to show two sides and duality both with their individual plots, emotions, and characterization overall.
Season 3: Getting Dean out of his deal and dealing with the demons that escaped from the devil's gate. Really that's all there is to it. Yes Ruby was introduced and there were a few lines (The Boy King & was the Sam Dean brought back really Sam?) that hinted at something more for Sam but really those were dropped plot lines that I've actually always hoped they'd pick back up. But I'm focusing these to each season and Ruby's effects on Sam are more season 4 than 3.
Big Bad: Lilith
Dean story plot – He's going to hell and demons are wrecking havoc on Earth and later dealing with Lilith who holds his contract and wants Sam dead
Dean's emotional plot – dealing with his impending doom
Sam's story plot – Trying to get Dean out of his deal any way possible (Ruby used this to her advantage) and dealing with demons from the gate and especially those out to get him like Lilith.
Sam emotional plot – fighting against Dean who wants to just let the deal be and struggling to reconcile what he'll do if he can't save Dean
My Opinion: The season was Dean heavy until the introduction of Lilith near the end of the season. For such a short season that gave us a huge plot for Dean regarding his deal and not much for Sam besides angsting about the looming possibility of losing his brother. And even with Lilith's introduction she was more integral to Dean in this season than to Sam considering that she held Dean's hell contract. And Bela was more about Dean's plot too considering she was there to also be a victim of a demon deal and tell the boys who to go after to try to save Dean. Ruby, she was interested in Sam obviously but that only becomes something very important in season 4. In season 3 we had here looming around promising she could save Dean. I won't say Sam had no story this season because he did but it was a Dean heavy storyline this season which did contrast nicely after the season 2 dealt so much with the psychic kids. Dean worried about Sam in S2 now Sam was worrying a lot about Dean in S3.
Season 4: Angels, Seals, and demon blood oh my.
Big bad: Lilith & Ruby
Dean's story plot – Returned from hell by angels, helping to stop the breaking of the seals, according to the angels only he can stop it, and told by angels that Sam is untrustworthy
Dean's emotional plot – dealing with the torture and memories of what he did in hell, reconciling his non-faith in god or angels, and questions, "Is Sam going darkside?" "I broke the first seal."
Sam's story plot – Revenge for Dean while Dean was in hell drove him to trust Ruby and begin relying on his powers, drinking demon blood to increase his powers and ability to kill Lilith, helping to stop the breaking of the seals
Sam's emotional plot – anger, revenge, addiction and I'd even say fear in what he's doing and why he's doing it
My opinion: Thankfully almost no one tries to argue this was an unbalanced season in either direction. Dean had the angel issues, Sam had the demon issues and it all came down to a misconception which I will always argue was both brothers' fault. Dean wanted to gank Lilith as much as Sam did and neither one of them we're listening to each other, but set in their own ways rather than working together. Angels and demons got between them. Both sides used them and not just in one direction either. A demon got Sam to kill Lilith but angels wanted it to be that way anyways and Dean trusted the angels. Not to mention that Dean broke the first seal which was something the demons orchestrated but angels let happen (they didn't save him sooner which they probably very well could have but didn't want to). Nice job breaking it heroes. -_- And basically Dean betrayed Sam as much as Sam betrayed him because of all of it. Thank you angel douchebags for ruining their bond. Dean realizes too late that they've been played and Sam plays his role as laid out by both Ruby and the higher up angels.
Season 5: Ah the Apocalypse. The end of it all. Lucifer vs Michael to see who rules the world
Big Bad: Lucifer and Michael (technically though Lucifer played a bigger role)
Dean's story role – being the chosen one by Heaven still to be Michael's vessel (my opinion on the late game switch is below), stopping Lucifer and the apocalypse by collecting the four horsemen's rings
Dean emotional plot – still distrustful of Sam, not knowing what the right path is, a lot of emotional fatigue which is really a culmination of what he expressed both in season 2 Croatoan and season 3 with his deal.
Sam's story role – Lucifer's vessel because of being chosen by Azazel and in a way Heaven too (since we find out a cupid forced Mary and John together because of the bloodline and ties to Cain and Abel so that Sam and Dean could be the vessels), stopping the apocalypse
Sam's emotional plot – redemption, dealing with the fallout of his choices in season 4 with trusting Ruby and drinking demon blood.
My opinion: The emotional baggage both boys carry this season is heavy though I've always actually felt that Sam's got over dramatized and not for the better. Dean was played up to be the "good" brother way too much and all of the faults that should have been placed on him from season 4 are placed exclusively on Sam because he's the "bad" brother. Don't let this make anyone think though that it was unbalanced, if anything they really destroyed Sam's integrity this season while building Dean's up. Pay attention to how many times Sam is blamed for starting the Apocalypse even though as I pointed out in season 4 Dean broke the first seal and trusted the angels who helped lead them both to letting Lilith get killed. It wasn't unbalanced there was just a lot going on this season to set up Dean and Sam into their parallel roles as Lucifer and Michael so much so that certain things from previous seasons were thrown away or overlooked.
Now on the subject of the last minute substitution for Adam as Michael instead of Dean which so many argue was basically stealing Dean's story plot. While I admit the choice did undermine a lot of what was set up in season 5 with Michael and Lucifer/Dean and Sam, it also made the most sense of you consider the entire series and much of Dean's choices in season 5. From very early on Dean establishes he doesn't want to be anything special, anything more than human (season 2 as pointed out above), just a hunter, protector, and a brother. He considers becoming the vessel at one point (which I hated) but even then doesn’t and chooses “Freewill” which is as human of a concept as you get and actually the most difficult path to choose. Dean is the human element in the show and always has been. It’s been pointed out that he exemplifies all that is both good (a protector, believes in justice, has strong family values) and bad (lust, gluttony, lack of faith not just in God but in people too including himself) about humans. Yes switching Adam in for Michael killed what season 5 had been building up but in the long scheme of the entire series it was exactly the way things needed to be because Dean’s character would not allow for him to be Michael’s vessel ever. Even in the future, although future!Dean wished at that point he could have said yes because of what he’d been through, he isn’t the vessel. He’s still just human, just Dean and I think that episode was a major clue that Dean would never be Michael because it wasn’t in his nature to accept being something more than himself. And when Dean comes into the graveyard in Swan Song, blasting rock and roll (Rock of Ages indeed) he’s there to humanize Sam, to bring him back.
What I think people who claim to be fans of Dean don’t realize is that they are entirely missing out on the strongest and most prominent part of the character by screaming and whining over how “special” Sam is compared to Dean. Dean is special in his own way, Dean is the human factor in the show and it’s a very important aspect. While everything else is crazy, supernatural, crap blowing up in people’s faces, which Sam is as often as not part of the problem, Dean is human, is “normal” (as normal as a hunter of the supernatural can be) and always chooses to be that way. Even with a chance to be “special” in a way that is supernatural (an angel’s vessel) he turns it down. That is truly what’s awesome about him and why so many people love him as a character. If Dean we’re ever given some “special” storyline similar to Sam’s he wouldn’t be Dean anymore and Dean wouldn’t like it (vampire!Dean in S6? He hated it and hated himself). All of Dean’s parts in the story are always about the human element about grounding the brothers in a very human reality (cars, music, girls, junkfood, jokes, family) even though they live surrounded by unnatural things particularly Dean who can’t get away from the supernatural ever because of Sam.
Dean’s focus on devotion to family and being human since the very beginning is in contrast to Sam being lost and misguided and not quite all human. Dean tends to have very clear cut answers to problems and opinions on things. Sam tends to wander and stray and not really know what he’s doing even when he thinks he does. Sam has also been manipulated basically his whole life, a puppet on strings, whilst Dean has always exemplified freedom doing what he wants to do simply because he wants to do it. Sam’s redemption did come at the end of season 5 when he finally chose freely to defeat Lucifer by taking them both into the pit. It was one of few times he wasn’t told to do something or manipulated to do it, he chose it.
All of what I’ve outlined doesn’t make either brother superior or having more parts to play in the show than the other, it makes them opposites with opposite roles to play. Sam is the freak and Dean is the human. They’re like Beauty and the Beast, with Dean being the human who must deal with and tame Sam, who is sometimes a monster but really just a cursed human. In that story was either character less important than the other, was either role less prominent to how the story was told? No they were just two very different characters with very different roles and both integral to the story.
Moving on to season 6 we have a lot of attempted mold breaking while still mostly remaining true to the characters.
Season 6: Sam is back from Hell but without his soul, the apocalypse left Heaven in a mess, Civil War and Purgatory. Because the season was modeled on film noir there was a lot of misdirection so the overall plot sometimes did feel a bit muddled because you’re telling a film noir story in 22, 1 hour pieces rather than say a 2 hour movie. There was a lot of time to fill to throw the audience off until the finale.
Dean’s story plot – getting Sam’s soul back, dealing with monsters and a hunt for Purgatory, protecting Sam’s wall
Dean’s emotional plot – tearing himself in two because he had what he wanted in a family with Lisa and Ben but can’t bring himself to abandon Sam and hunting, early on his emotional uncertainty with Sam’s behavior and later his unrest as he comes to find out of Castiel’s betrayal.
Sam’s story plot – Robo!Sam was hunting for alphas with the Campbells and later with Dean on Crowley’s orders to find Purgatory, later soulful!Sam was dragged into the issues with Purgatory and Heaven’s Civil War and dealing with what he’d done as Robo!Sam
Sam’s emotional plot – minimal throughout the Robo!Sam arc because he lacked emotions, once he had his soul back dealing with what he’d done while soulless and reconciling with Dean
My Opinion: The entire story and character plots actually plays out better on a second watch through. Instead of starching my head and getting frustrated with lack of answers and being lead to the wrong conclusions, a second watch through shows you how the season was really set up and all the little hints and nuances throughout. It’s not as horrible as everyone makes it out to be just very different from previous seasons. It’s basically a mystery story with a supernatural setting. Dean I felt actually had the stronger story from square one because Robo!Sam had no story, he was involved in some bad stuff but he wasn’t our Sam, wasn’t Dean’s Sam. Unlike previous seasons where Sam and Dean were working together to solve the issues facing them, now Dean found himself trying to unravel everything alone, both what was walking along at his side as his brother and what was up with the alphas, plus some unrest in Heaven on the side so he came to heavily rely on Cas. Not to mention being pre-occupied with Ben and Lisa, the family he’s always wanted but can’t have.
Sam’s early presence was there only to make Dean and us scratch our heads and wonder what the hell was wrong. The audience and Dean even wondered if it was even Sam at all or possibly Lucifer driving the bus or hell it could have been a demon or a Demon!Sam, we just didn’t know. And after finding out about him being soulless, its Dean making the effort to save his soul (in a reversal of roles from season 3), not Robo!Sam (just like how Dean didn’t want Sam to save him from Hell, Robo!Sam was content without his soul). Once Sam’s soul is returned Sam joins Dean in the middle of everything else that is playing out with little of his previous memories as Robo!Sam to fill him in because of the wall. Sam’s story from there on is more about his emotional baggage than about any major part to play in the story. And it’s not even about emotional baggage from Hell like Dean’s return in season 4 since he can’t even remember it. It’s mostly still about what he did wrong in the past 5 seasons and what he kind of knows about his actions while Soulless. Sam was along for the ride at that point to help stop Eve and Purgatory and eventually Cas. And since it was Cas eventually that proved to be a major adversary it was Dean calling the shots since he knows Cas better. And then Dean’s issues with Ben and Lisa constantly being brought up and actually being put into jeopardy near the end. Dean is at the forefront this season as it really is a reversal from season 1 only now dean is our audience surrogate, Dean is the one we’re following emoting with. Whereas season 1 as an audience we were following Sam emoting “Why am I different? Why did Jess die?” now we are asking questions in sequence with Dean, “What is wrong with my brother? Why can’t I be with Ben and Lisa?” But because Sam’s turn as Robo!Sam was such a jarring difference from the Sam we knew and Dean was very uncomfortable a lot of the time but otherwise still the same very human character he’s always been, we tended to pay more attention to the strange Sam and that has translated to angry Dean fans being angry about too much Sam focus in the show when really Sam was Dean’s plot point this season. It was Dean’s plot, Dean’s mystery to figure out who his brother was, how to get his soul back, and how to keep his wall up plus his involvement with Cas and the mess up in Heaven since Dean is closer to Cas.
Dean genuinely cares about his brother, is protective of him, and as we know would do anything for him which causes many of Dean’s problems and agony throughout the show. If you’re truly a fan of Dean and truly understand Dean’s character then you would sympathize with Dean and his wants and needs which includes his role as the protective big brother always looking out for and agonizing over Sam. And you all complain about “more of the same” but really you all seem to hate change and are threatening to quit the show because of it (season 6 was different) yet really not much overall has changed, the brothers both still ultimately fit the same roles they had all the way back in Season 1 (when they actually are themselves) as was seen once Sam got his soul back and slipped right into emoting with victims, doing research, and doing what Dean tells him to do while Dean returned to being joking, snarky and bossy. Yes they have changed because they’ve been through a lot since episode 1 but ultimately their overall personalities haven’t changed just evolved. And both Dean and Sam fans bitch and complain when really there’s nothing to bitch and complain about if you’d only stop being so blind and open your eyes to what the show is really all about and the role your so called beloved characters are playing.
As for season 7 its being equated to Butch and Sundance so guess what you can’t have Butch without Sundance, so we’re not going to have Sam without Dean. Sam’s hell memories need to be explored as that plot point was opened at the end of season 6 and would be a waste if they glossed it over, same with Cas as God. Dean’s experiences in hell took nearly half a season to unfold and be dealt with back in season 4 (actually more than that since they didn’t really culminate until On the Head of a Pin where he tortured Alistair and learned he broke the 1st seal, which was episode 16) those who complain that they weren’t covered or were ignored are really blind and ignorant. But the unfortunate part in that, is Ruby had Sam under her thrall and so Sam didn’t pay as much attention to Dean as he should have. Then again as I pointed out Sam has always been a misguided puppet so it’s not entirely his fault that Dean’s experiences with his Hell memories played out the way they did. And not to mention we still hear about what happened to him from time to time because now Dean keeps relating what happened to him to what’s happened to Sam. Though with Robo!Sam it didn’t matter but I think maybe season 7 might have a “we’ve both been to Hell” heart to heart coming as they both deal with Sam being unstable from his memories of Hell. Dean will have his plot significance in season 7 but I think it will develop from the stories with Sam and Cas and his part to play in all of that plus whatever big bad they end up facing and other mysterious that unfold. As I pointed out Dean was the audience surrogate for season 6, a role taken over from Sam, I think he’ll continue that role in season 7 so his reactions to situations will emulate fan reactions and questions. Maybe that’s something Dean fans don’t appreciate because before Sam was the emulator and Dean was an instigator, now that has been reversed. Sam’s actions now instigate Dean’s reactions. That’s a hard concept to explain clearly to anyone who doesn’t have strong background knowledge in character study and roles, and flipping such roles in what would seem to us the middle of the story is jarring. It’s like changing narrators in the middle of a first person narrative.
Personally I’m looking forward to the future of SPN. I’m a newer fan to the series having only been introduced to it just over a year ago, so I’m not even close to ready to part with it. And maybe for those who have been here since the beginning it’s just a case of the length of time you have invested into the series which is muddling your insights. It’s not uncommon as I know I got fatigued with Lost because of how long the series and questions dragged and the jarring changes that occurred about half way through. But I gave the series a watch through after it ended and realized it was pretty good overall even if it did leave a bit too much open in the end for my personal liking. But its evidence that sometimes you invest too much time and emotion to a series and its characters and regardless of what the series does or where the series goes, you still feel cheated and annoyed and just have to get out for a while. As for me I Love the Sam AND Dean story and can't wait for it to continue in Sept (meanwhile I'm trying to be patient for the release of the anime and then the 6th season).
Harmony,
Well done! A very thorough and fair analysis. I agree with you that Supernatural is about both brothers and that both have been given storylines throughout each season. I believe that Dean is in more of a protective role, which would explain why his storylines are often more focused on protecting or trying to save Sam. But that doesn't in any way diminish his importance in the show. Imagine some of the choices Sam would have made – or where he would be today – if not for Dean looking out for him (well, the truth is he would have died at the end of season 2).
The simple truth is that the show simply cannot exist without both brothers. Is the show flawless? Of course not. There are often plot holes that I wish had not happened. But the fighting among fans is so pointless and tiresome. Both characters are equally as vital to the overall storyline.
I think you put everything else perfectly :)
Clarissa
Thank you Clarissa. On the subject of dropped plot holes I'll attempt to be brief, but really there are a bunch of them. And there is a reason for this and so many fans like to get stuck on these so called "dropped plots" when really we must forgive the show for them and move on. Why? Because unfortunately scripted television is not a novel by a single author. Every story is not written by the same person. There's a helm, a forefront that handles making sure it works as a cohesive whole but otherwise each episode has a different writer and are stylistically different because of it. I can easily tell the difference between say a Ben Edlund episode from a Eric Kripke episode or Sera Gamble or Andrew Dabb and Daniel Loflin or any other writer. It honestly comes off as the difference between reading a bunch of really good fanfic writers for the same series. They all know their way around the characters and the story but stylistically every story is different and sometimes someone inserts a line or piece of information that they believe fits into the overall story but its just not something that's going to get further explored. The fact that Supernatural being in the genre it is doesn't have far more holes or dropped storylines, like say Lost, is a testament to how close all the writers are to the story and characters.
The fighting is tiresome but I'll address that more in a response to one of the other comments below which specifically calls out my so called "bi-bro" affiliation.
Harmony
Harmony,
Great analysis — I wish all fans would read this, though I suspect that those who are entrenched in seeing the show as being all about one brother are very committed to that opinion and will not be convinced otherwise. I agree with you on all counts, particularly your analysis of seasons 5 and 6 — I think six was a much stronger season than people give it credit for, and certainly much stronger, on re-watch, than 5. You have a great sense of both character and the, sometimes unfortunately, restrictive roles they have to play for the sake of balance. I too am thrilled about the coming season — Jared and Jensen have both grown as actors and they both know their roles inside out. I hope they continue to have fun playing these parts, and I know that I will continue to enjoy watching them.
I really quite love you. Perfect analysis. I think fans only get defensive because it takes one idiot poster to be all 'why isn't Dean getting a story' or 'and why isn't sam mentioned?' for people to jump on the bandwagon and start a big old riot with us all defending our boy. Well too long this fandom has been at its others throat instead of united behind the brothers. And behind our show. Winchesters against the world because you can be damned sure that without one there wouldn't be the other and there wouldn't be a show.
I agree with most of what you say. My own comment above wasn't a Sam vs Dean rant, but a fact that I'm hearing complaints for the first time from "normal" Dean fans. Extremists always complained about Dean vs Sam, since S1. This is new.
But what I am seeing now in the wake of S6, is a losing of interest among the regulars, not extremists. In 6 years, that is a first for me, and it frightens me, because I love the show and want it to go on for years. An extremist stays to hate – a normal fan will move on out of boredom. This is scary.
You are calling out attention to so called "regulars" and "extremists" but it's really more about bandwagon jumping. You hear it enough that your favorite character is being victimized by the show and eventually you're going to end up feeling the same way. It's just a matter of how vocal is one side being compared to the other and how strong is their argument against the defense. So you're seeing these casual Dean fans start to jump on the bandwagon now and there's actually a good reason. As I pointed out season 6 was a departure from the normal character molds especially with Dean. And because it was different for everyone not just the extremists now everyone is much more likely to listen and to make the usual threats about jumping ship. But for the more casual fan I don't worry about those threats. They're following a trend at this point with everyone else voicing their outcries for Dean but if they truly aren't extremists they'll be back in the fall to watch the show. Dean's story and character has been victimized all that much as i pointed out in my post. But you break the mold for a little while and this is what you get. The Show actually put Dean almost right back into his mold after Sam got his soul back and they actually had lines of dialog to back this point up like Sam: "Its comforting I went to Hell for a year and you're still not funny." Its the writers way of saying here's what you wanted now that Sam is back to being himself Dean is what he's always been and Sam is what he's always been because both characters have to be themselves for each character to fit into their mold. When one doesn't fit their mold like with Soulless!Sam then the other inevitably doesn't fit into his mold and that got fans of Dean and Sam in an uproar. We just happen to hear Dean fans more now because they've always been loud.
I'm not scared, the show will go on and unfortunately for those of us that hate it the fighting will inevitably continue. The Dean fans will still be around this time next year and unless something holy crap drastic! happens to him in the show that gives him some sort of "main" story line, they'll still be bitching. Because as pointed out below (I'm getting to each of these comments in turn but I've already read them all) Supernatural is using Campbell's "hero's journey" with Sam in the hero archetype for the first 5 seasons. But really I've seen that archetype switching towards Dean and perhaps the next 4 seasons or whatever will be about Dean's journey. Dean fans just refuse to recognize that for now but maybe eventually they will acknowledge it when it slaps them in the face and then the Sam fans can get on their high horses and complain. It's a never ending circle of fan wangst. I love this fandom but sometimes I hate the fans.
No, it's not bandwagon jumping. It's what happens when a show loses the magic that starts people watching it.
Well, there is too much in this post that I don't agree with but most of it is a matter of perception and this is probably because in looking over the series as a whole, the writing on this show has often failed to provide plot and characterizational clarity, at least to me. Trying to keep this short and broadly speaking, I'd say it's because the unreliable narrator the writers of this show often employ leaves the possibility of too many interpretations especially when, in some cases, crystal clarity is called for to form a cohesive picture whether in regards to a character or a plot. But that's just me.
I am the normal fan who is ready to move on out of boredom. As regards the brothers, I'm tired of watching What's wrong with Sam since S1-and the episodes Bloody Mary and Home, in addition to Nightmare were also heavily PsychicSam oriented, IMO-and while I never minded watching Dean "soul search" since S2 while he angsted over his brother as long as he was a kickass hunter, too(and looked upon as one by the other characters in the show) as he was doing those other things, also. The only difference from the first 5 seasons that I saw Ms. Gamble attempting to make in S6 was in trying to take the kickass hunter role of Dean's away from him through the domestication storyline(that we barely saw btw)so that Sam could seem to shine brighter in it as SoullessSam. Kudos to Jensen for trying as hard as he did(and yes, succeeding at it, for the most part) to keep that aspect of Dean because the kickass hunter has always been my favorite aspect of Dean, my favorite character, so I hope she won't try to do this again in S7. I'd love for her to try to again bring Dean into the myth-arc as kripke did in S4 so that the fandom might find some sense of harmony again nd so that his name might also be mentioned when the writers and producers of the show talk about "major story arcs" of the show in their interviews. And I honestly don't feel like that's too much to ask of the showrunner for one of the co-leads on this show. But if she chooses to not do this, I hope she will at least never take the kickass hunter role away from Dean again. It is, IMO, a large part of his core characterization and what many in the fandom first fell in love with about him.
Shannon, yours is the kind of comment I really like reading, because it prompts an interesting discussion instead of endless back and forth.
I agree with you that Dean was always a kickass hunter. Personally, I think that aspect of his personality actually plays into the whole big brother/protective vibe he has going on. He's good at his job because he wants to protect people – whether it's Sam, other family members, complete strangers or the whole world.
Of course, the show has told us time and again that Dean also yearned for a normal life. But it's different to long for something you never had and actually live with it once you've got it. While I didn't mind Lisa and Ben on the show, I agree that domesticating Dean wasn't the best thing to do. And clearly went against his personality, since he was eventually drawn back into hunting (and a desire to reunite with Sam).
But I also think that he started to become a kickass hunter again towards the end of season 6. The way he killed Eve not only showed that Dean is still awesome at his job, but also reminded us that he can be very clever when he wants to be. In other words, Sam's not the only brain and Dean's not the only brawn.
From what I've heard season 7 will have the boys floundering because all of their old tricks and methods (most likely the angelic assistance and possibly other things I can't immediately recall) will be unavailable. If that's the case, they'll have to go back to relying on their own wits and skills. I'd like to think that being in such circumstances would bring Dean fully back into the kickass sphere.
I hope it works out, because we both obviously want to see the same thing :)
Thanks, Clarissa. I wish you would send this on to TPTB and/or the writers. There's some great stuff here.
I disagree with a lot in this post, too, but I'm going to concentrate on thw two places where I believe the writers started their slide into mediocrity. The first was in the mending of the bond. The fact that Sam often projects his own weaknesses and character flaws onto Dean, much as John used to do, was never addressed; and this, more than anything has been at the core of Dean's lack of any real sense of self and self-worth. And Sam wanted Dean to stop bossing hima roundand being so controlling and yet when Dean does this and Sam makes a mistake, he depends on and wants Dean to be there to clean up the mess. These things should have been addressed because they're very important apsects of what puts the co in their co-dependent relationship.
Secondly-the resolution of stopping the Apocalypse. The way they did it fits, yes, but I would ask this of the fans who are looking so forward to seeing what Sam went through in hell when the season starts-what if in the premiere Godstiel healed Sam of his hell memories and then retrieved Adam from the cage, but before he could heal Adam Godstiel became Cas again, and so Adam was left with all those memories of his time in the cage and we got to see them. That would fit, right?-but it would be pretty darn disappointing for those who'd waited so long for the resolution of that Sam storyline. Well, that's how the fans felt who, for almost two seasons, were looking forward to the resolution of Dean's myth-arc storyline and the part he'd play in taking out Lucifer. Just because the writing fits, that doesn't make it satisfying, entertaining, or WELL-written. I've never in my life heard of a 2 season long red-herring; and bait and switches are almost guaranteed to lose a writer some fans when it's done in manners such as I've described above.
And that we got a soap opera storyline in a supernaturla show in S6 for Dean, AND they hardly showed it to us. I wasn't thrilled with the idea of that storyline, but if given more of an opportunity, I have nodoubt that Jensen and Cindy Sampson and the kid could have made it work for many of us who had no interest whatsover in the SoullessSam storyline. Sera had committed to that storyline for Dean and Jensen and,as a CO-LEAD on this show, she owed it to him(and yes, his fans too) to explore it in a more in-depth way, IMO.
And now we've gotten "soul searching" out of Sera and Comic Con as Dean's S7 storyline…*sigh*… Is it any wonder that those of us who watch this show predominantly for Jensen and Dean are ready to walk-and yes, we are and can be "real" fans of the show and no one is talking about taking anything away from JP. Like Shannon, I hope they will at least let Dean be the best hunter on the planet WHILE he's doing his "soul searching" and I really, REALLY hope that his story will evolve into something more than that as the season progresses.
Longer posts I'm going to respond to each piece so I apologize for the quotes, but I'd like to keep focused as much as possible.
"I disagree with a lot in this post, too,"
Just a quick note but those of you pointing out you so very much disagree with my post none of you have really addressed my points and rebuttal them directly as to why you disagree, why I'm wrong. You're just bringing up different points or the same points you've always fallen back on. This is technically a debate so rebuttal already don't just say you disagree and then repeat yourself or avoid the topics I've brought up. Starting a new argument doesn't advance your opinion, it's avoidance and in a debate that means my point still stands un-objected.
Moving on.
"but I’m going to concentrate on thw two places where I believe the writers started their slide into mediocrity."
See point above. Now you're pointing out the show's mediocrity (or so you say), when the original topic was whether Dean has a strong part in the story. So now I have to address this topic in which you actually give plenty of examples that actually match my own points in my post above (but which I didn't fully expound because it wasn't the original topic), which I shall now address and outline and which further help to prove my stance on Dean's strong role in the story.
"The first was in the mending of the bond. The fact that Sam often projects his own weaknesses and character flaws onto Dean, much as John used to do, was never addressed; and this, more than anything has been at the core of Dean’s lack of any real sense of self and self-worth. And Sam wanted Dean to stop bossing hima roundand being so controlling and yet when Dean does this and Sam makes a mistake, he depends on and wants Dean to be there to clean up the mess. These things should have been addressed because they’re very important apsects of what puts the co in their co-dependent relationship."
First off why are these things even being brought up? Is there a point here? Because all I see is you pointing out the characters' flaws which are integral parts of their personalities. Without these weaknesses of character the characters would be flat. Without there being something wrong with their characters they would be perfect characters and we wouldn't care about them because they wouldn't be "human" in their emotions and actions. Furthermore you seem to be asking why these flaws haven't been addressed when they are obviously addressed a lot because they are major parts of the characters that often get them into trouble, most often with each other. These are parts of the show that are still playing out because they are parts of the characters. You don't just "solve" these character weaknesses, because they are a part of the characters and contribute to their personalities and decisions. If you were to "solve" a character weakness like Dean's lack of self-respect or Sam's projecting then you'd significantly change the characters. Maybe for better, maybe for the worse but they would be drastically changed. The reason for many of Dean's actions is that he lacks a belief in his own worth so he throws himself into a line of danger to protect others whom he perceives as being more worthy than himself. Meanwhile Sam's actions are often a part of his projecting problems onto others instead of himself and then Dean comes to his rescue.
Your last line here actually is semi an oxymoron because they are co-dependent which is a major part of the show and one often addressed and if they ever resolved this co-dependency issue it wouldn't be the same Winchester brothers anymore. If they weren't co-dependent Dean could easily give up hunting and live with Lisa, he wouldn't have cared that Sam was back he would have done what he'd wanted. But even Lisa points out that their relationship is tangled and messed up and there is no room for her in Dean's life. As for mending their bond so much has happened to them that they both, Dean in particular, just want to let the past go and move on. Dean's line at Rufus' grave in 6.16 is particularly telling and really puts to rest the entire issue. He just wants to move on and live for as long as possible not dissect their past wrongs and bring them back into the light of the present. He ultimately just wants to bury the past mistakes and keep moving forward. Remember he's a "no chick-flick" moments kind of guy so if the show actually got into a long angsty dialog between the two about their issues with each and their past actions it would be totally against both their characters. I personally would think the show had gone awry if they decided to spend too much focus on this because that's not what the Winchester boys have been known to do. They're known for swallowing their problems, especially the ones that they acknowledge there's nothing they can realistically do anything about (like their personal weaknesses) and instead just keep moving on doing what they must to survive. Too many fans want to dissect these character flaws and weaknesses in Show rather than seeing that the show addresses these things as much as possible without turning the show into an entire long winded dialog on angst and touchy feely emotions. That's not all the show is about so lets move on.
How this makes the show "mediocre" is beyond me. It's actually what makes the two characters interesting, gives them their lifelike personalities, even though, yes again, it makes them fit into molds that don't very often get broken. If you find such an integral part of the show to be a point of mediocrity then why did you enjoy the show at all to begin with?
"Secondly-the resolution of stopping the Apocalypse. The way they did it fits, yes,"
Agreeing with me doesn't further your own argument. Thank you.
"but I would ask this of the fans who are looking so forward to seeing what Sam went through in hell when the season starts-what if in the premiere Godstiel healed Sam of his hell memories and then retrieved Adam from the cage, but before he could heal Adam Godstiel became Cas again, and so Adam was left with all those memories of his time in the cage and we got to see them. That would fit, right?-but it would be pretty darn disappointing for those who’d waited so long for the resolution of that Sam storyline."
No it wouldn't fit at all because even though you've projected it as being the same situation it really isn't. The reason that what happened in the end of the apocalypse for Dean fit, as you admitted, was because of his personality and character type which had been established for as long as we'd come to know Dean. But whereas Dean established his role via his personality there is nothing like that to prevent showing Sam's hell and even what we known about Cas now would not create that situation. The situation you've given may seem at the surface to be similar but the reasoning for both scenarios would be very different. Adam became Michael because Dean would not take the role it was against his personality, but not showing Sam's hell would but like if we never found out what Dean did in Hell or how it effected him. Not only that but the scenario you've outlined is just outright poor writing where as the way the apocalypse was dealt with was well written because it didn't destroy anything that had already been established from the beginning. Yes as I had pointed out it made most of the paralleling set up in season 5 pointless because Dean refused his role in the end but that was also the brilliance of it. That Dean chose his role, he chose freewill instead of being Michael. The fact that you can admit it fit means it was good writing.
"Well, that’s how the fans felt who, for almost two seasons, were looking forward to the resolution of Dean’s myth-arc storyline and the part he’d play in taking out Lucifer. Just because the writing fits, that doesn’t make it satisfying, entertaining, or WELL-written."
I'm sorry there are Dean fans who are so stuck in their way that they can't experience the show objectively. That shouldn't be turned into the fault of the show though or of other fans for that matter. Dean's part in the myth-arc was dealt with, his role in it all was established. He was going to become Michael but then refused it in Point of No Return. He made his choice from there to not be a vessel and to stop the apocalypse by not being a participant but by defeating Lucifer. He played his part in taking out Lucifer, if it hadn't been for Dean in that cemetery we would have had the 2014 future or worse. Dean fans just want to whine because Dean didn't become something he wasn't, he didn't become Michael and kick Sam's ass or outright kill both Sam and Lucifer. But that would have been poor writing because it would have destroyed Dean's character completely and shown that he no longer cared about Sam at all, had totally given up on him. What was written was brilliant because Dean ultimately did have to sacrifice Sam, and because of their co-dependence it was like him sacrificing a part of himself. The fact that a Dean fan can admit my point that it fit his character means that it was well written it just wasn't what you wanted or expected because you have a skewed view of the show. The culmination of the 5 year story was well-written and well played by Kripke.
"I’ve never in my life heard of a 2 season long red-herring;"
You weren't a fan of Lost then I take it…
"and bait and switches are almost guaranteed to lose a writer some fans when it’s done in manners such as I’ve described above."
The thing you describe yes it would lose fans because it's just outright uncalled for and not supported by anything previously in canon. And personally I enjoy a well planned bait and switch but the switch to Adam as Michael wasn't even a bait and switch it was a pinch hitter for the angels. It was their last resort because Adam had the Winchester bloodline. It wasn’t even last minute considering Adam was introduced in season 4 and the possibility of him being chosen should Dean refuse was brought up several episodes in before the end of season 5. I suspect that had Sam not been tainted he would have also been able to be Michael's vessel because of the bloodline which was told to us by Gabriel to date back to Cain and Abel, the sons of Adam and Eve. But due to the roles assigned by Heaven it was Dean who was the role of Michael and Sam as Lucifer, officially speaking. But in the end it was actually the fight between Cain and Abel that got played out even though it was Michael and Lucifer in the vessels.
To those with a slightly lacking knowledge of Bible scripture Abel was the good son of Adam and Eve but he was the younger, Cain was the older brother who did not please God and then killed Abel therefore committing the first sin of murder and then was exiled (more on this later). Adam (Abel?) is the youngest Winchester and he cooperated with Heaven's will and sacrificed himself whom was basically innocent (Abel's sacrifice to God was a lamb) and Sam is the next older in line. And technically even Dean rebelled against God and Heaven with his choice not to obey and be Michael's vessel which would place him in the role of Cain as well. By aiding Sam and helping to destroy both his younger brothers whom were favored by the angels (Michael and Lucifer) Dean ultimately committed the act of fratricide, the role of Cain (because without Dean Sam would have never had the strength to jump into the hole with Lucifer, Dean led him to that).
It was actually Dean's choices that changed the course of the story from one about Michael and Lucifer to being about the link to Cain and Abel. Cain killed Abel because God favored Abel's sacrifices over Cain's. Isn't in a way what Dean has sacrificed more worthy of God's approval but instead he finds himself without the help or love of God. Sure the show didn't outline this for us and it's really a lot of filling in the blanks but the show isn't one for a lot of exposition so you kind of have to fill in the little holes and connect the dots. Connect even farther the fact that Dean then leaves hunting and the first episode of season 6 is called "'Exile' on Main Street" (the exiled Cain is represented by Dean living a life of exile and wracked with his guilt over his brother). The thing I love about Supernatural is connecting the hints given to us into an entire picture. Its there you just have to look. Just like they don't waste time explaining little pop culture hints that sometimes mean way more than just being a joke, they also prefer to just give us the large picture and let everyone else fill in based on the symbolism provided. And like Chuck gave us in Swan Song "you can't tie up every plot hole and the fans are always going to complain" but they gave the ending to us such as it was. And Dean's role was way huge but Dean fans just like to be stuck on Sam was the "special" one that got sacrificed when really it was Dean's choices and sacrifices that led us to that point at all.
"And that we got a soap opera storyline in a supernatural show in S6 for Dean, AND they hardly showed it to us. I wasn’t thrilled with the idea of that storyline, but if given more of an opportunity, I have nodoubt that Jensen and Cindy Sampson and the kid could have made it work for many of us who had no interest whatsover in the SoullessSam storyline. Sera had committed to that storyline for Dean and Jensen and,as a CO-LEAD on this show, she owed it to him(and yes, his fans too) to explore it in a more in-depth way, IMO."
First off you called it a soap-opera story line which makes it sound like you didn’t like it and then complained that it didn’t get shown enough. Umm make up your mind. I heard a lot of complaining from both types of fans about the Lisa storyarc and wanting it over as soon as possible. To lean on things I’ve already pointed out the beginning of Season 6 is meant to show that Dean is in exile but he still holds the co-dependence to Sam, so Sam turns up and Dean is left with little choice but to return. Once he returns to hunting there’s really nothing much to show on that end except to point out to us that connections to Lisa and Ben will put them in danger, which was done in the end of season 6 and put to rest. It was ultimately this part of Dean’s season 6 story that changed the character so much and frankly seems to have put Dean fans in even more uproar. By domesticating him he was no longer the kickass hunter that fans loved until the real Sam finally returned (again I point out that breaking these character’s molds seem to make fans the angriest). And then he had to cut off his ties to that domestic life completely which he did. What they showed of that storyline was as much as I think the show and the fans could handle and came to its obvious conclusion. I think it was handled with the best effort because so many fans seemed to hate that side of Dean and they did what they could to complete that storyline while returning to fans the Dean they loved. IMHO we could do with a little more character mold breaking but that’s just me. Fans complain when it happens so the show is quick to restore things to the status quo (again I quote Sam “I died for a year, come back, and you’re still not funny.”)
“And now we’ve gotten “soul searching” out of Sera and Comic Con as Dean’s S7 storyline…*sigh*… Is it any wonder that those of us who watch this show predominantly for Jensen and Dean are ready to walk-and yes, we are and can be “real” fans of the show and no one is talking about taking anything away from JP. Like Shannon, I hope they will at least let Dean be the best hunter on the planet WHILE he’s doing his “soul searching” and I really, REALLY hope that his story will evolve into something more than that as the season progresses.
As a response to this part I can only ask what do you Dean Fans want? I mean you go on and on about Dean not having a “real” part in the story but what part do you want him to play. So far he’s always been what he’s always been. A big brother, a protector, a hunter, a family man, he’s always been the Dean that we know regardless of what’s thrown at him. It’s just that certain situations cause certain parts of his personality to be more predominant. So let’s hear it from a Dean fan what part would you write for him? What plot would you have him take part in if not the part of caring about Sam or worrying about Cas, who he views as family? If I started hearing some decently well thought out ideas for what else Dean should be doing then I might actually give some credence to these complaining fans. Otherwise the way I see it Dean is Dean, he’s a simple kind of guy and he sticks to his guns, kicks ass and keeps moving forward. Nothing about him has changed, nor has anything been stolen from him. Yes during early season 6 Soulless!Sam was the one kicking ass but he didn’t have a soul he had no emotion and meanwhile Dean was emoting a lot. Personally I think that has to do with the possibility of switching the hero’s journey role to Dean (which would be connected to his connection to Cas) but like I noted in an above post I’m still getting to that as it was a point brought up by a poster further below.
"So let’s hear it from a Dean fan what part would you write for him? What plot would you have him take part in if not the part of caring about Sam or worrying about Cas, who he views as family? If I started hearing some decently well thought out ideas for what else Dean should be doing then I might actually give some credence to these complaining fans…"
How about resurrecting some of those dropped Dean storylines from S4 and 5-like he was the "righteous man" who broke the first seal on Lucifer's cage and so, was the true catalyst of the Apocalypse, or the vow he gave to Cas in WTLB to "give himself over wholly to the service of God and his angels" or why he could kill The Whore of Babylon when only a True Servant of Heaven could accomplish such a task, or why he could look upon an angel's grace w/o his eyes being burned out or kill an angel, for that matter-and no wangsting on these things, please.
But with the apocalypse storyline over (at least the part that deals with Lucifer, Lilith and the seals) how would you resurrect those storylines that don't fit in with seasons 6 or what we suspect will happen in season 7? I think the storyline about Dean breaking the first seal played itself out. Lucifer is back in his cage so the seals don't matter.
As for Dean being a servant of Heaven, it was my understanding that he was able to kill the Whore of Babylon because he was prepared to say yes to Michael at that point (and later changed his mind, as we know).
As for looking upon an angel's grace I don't really remember what you're talking about. We know from episode 4.01 that Dean actually couldn't stand to listen to Castiel's true voice, so when did he look upon an angel's true grace (am I forgetting the scene??)
I think putting forward Dean storylines is a great idea, but I don't think these particular storylines could be explored again because everything about the Apocalypse is pretty much over.
Your explanations are all speculating, or wanting/angsting for, Clarisssa. Dean looked Zachariah right in the eyes as he killed him with the angel sword(and let's not forget Uriel's words of only an angel can kill an angel) and nothing happened to him or his eyes(as happened with Pamela when she looked upon Cas' "grace" or true form). My point was, there are many ways to bring Dean into the myth-arc, if Sera really wanted to. It need not be necessary for it to have anything to do with the Apocalypse, but the angels are another story…
I'm not really sure how my explanations are more speculative than your suggestions, but I did go back to watch that scene and he did look at the light for a moment or two before the force threw him back and he stopped looking at it. And we're still not entirely sure exactly what Pamela saw (or how much of Castiel's grace she saw) when her eyes got burned. I think the circumstances are somewhat of a plot hole, just like the question of why we didn't end up seeing Balthazar's wings when Castiel killed him – was it just because of a money issue or does it mean he's not really dead, for example.
I do believe Dean will be brought into the angel storyline. In fact, I think it's connection with Castiel that will directly involve him in what Cas will do this season (I think he will be a recurring guest star and won't die at the beginning of the season – but I could be proven wrong). If Castiel does live, then I think Dean will be a big part of a potential redemption storyline for him – maybe in the same way that Sam's love for Dean helped him with his own redemption.
See, I always felt he was able to kill The Whore because of the vow he made in WTLB, not because he temporarilyfelt tha the should give in to Michael. But that vow has all but been forgotten by the writers, IMO. That was no passing or lightly done thing, that was Dean Winchester pledging his entire being to God and his angels-of which Cas was one at the time. they could run with this if they wanted to and it would be awesome, IMO. AND Dean is a righteous man. It's canon because the first seal couldn't have been broken if he weren't. They could also run with this and it would again be awesome, IMO. I think bringing Dean into the myth-arc through the angels would be a perfect counterpoint to Sam being involved in it through the demons. The groundwork is already there.
Heh, stopped reading at STFU. Back atcha. I'd lay money that only a handful of people read even half of your post. Way to be pretentious and overbearing. That's a sure way to change everyone's minds. Yeah, back atcha.
I actually feel obligated to apologize for the SFTU comment but as I'd previously spent the majority of that day reading through comic-con stuff and the unbearable amount of Dean related rants on all the articles, I was frankly fed up at that point. My post after that point because much more rationally spoken and well reasoned. As for people not reading it I really don't care. Those that do care at all will read it and respond to it as many already have including yourself. As for being pretentious if you think stating a rational retort to an argument is pretentious then so be it. You obviously have no idea what it means to debate your side of a topic for which case I have no need for you to read my post anyways. Those who are stuck in their ways and will not rationally debate a topic logically are not high on my list of people to talk to and basically you read the part that I wanted you to, the STFU part because ones who can't chill and be rational and just keep whining and bitching are the one's that people like me are just sick and tired of hearing from anyways. Thanks for your comment and have a nice day. :)
I'm honestly curious. Don't you see the amount of Dean fan ranting you mention, as a sign of serious dissatisfaction with the show, not just the predictable few comments that usually rear their heads.
It is almost universal in every post. I've also read it all over every site, like you said. It's not a thing that can be argued away as in the typical fan wars. These are serious fans ready to move on. It scares the crap out of me.
I've only been a fan of the show since last summer round about early-mid July when my sister found it on TNT. Ever since I got into the fandom I've heard this type of back and forth between Sam fans and Dean fans and many mentioning that this is how the fandom has been since the very beginning so much so that I've heard other some fans refuse to get involved or other fandoms find SPN fans to be annoying in general. So I've just boiled it down to no one will be satisfied regardless but they obviously keep watching.
Funny thing, though? The posters who seem to have so much contempt for the so-called Samgirls or Deangirls? The pro Bi-Bro posters? Are just another fraction. Of the same fandom. Same playground, different corner. The only difference? Harmony asked others to ‘STFU’ and , under the pretenses of ‘objectivity’ let her show the others errors of their ways. The truth of the matter is that there is no ‘objective , ‘THE ONLY PROPER’ way of experiencing the Show. Your ‘objectivity’ is just another bias. Not worse but not better than mine, either. There’s no reason for this tone of superiority. Your bias is as biased as mine and it doesn’t matter how big of a list of ‘fair and objective’ arguments you provide; in response I can give you my list. It will be as extensive. And as ‘fair’ and ‘objective’.
The simple truth is: there is simply no ‘right’ or ‘wrong’ or UNBIASED in experiencing artistic creation. It’s highly subjective. It’s one of the most personal, intimate, forms of communication. In its essence, art, artistic creation is the communication with yourself. That’s where the magic of an artistic experience lies. So, really, there is no need, ladies and gentlemen, to tell us what we should think about the Show, how we should perceive the characters , their arcs and ‘balance’ or ‘imbalance’ between them. And there is no need to convince us that the Show is, should be, is supposed to be about, does not exist without BOTH brothers. From what I understand, that’s exactly where the problem lies: in the opinions of many, the show FAILS to balance the TWO brothers’ stories, even though it should.
I appreciate the amount of work you put into your post Harmony but I bet most people haven’t changed their minds. I haven’t changed mine. With some points I agree, with a lot I disagree because my perception of the story, characters etc. is simply different than yours. I also think that in terms of structure, separating SPN so strictly into seasons is entertaining (maybe) but , to large extent, futile. We all know, since everybody connected to the Show have said it repeatedly, that seasons 1-5 tell (maybe slightly diluted or changed) Kripke’s story. One story. And when you look at the narrative skeleton of the story, it’s (again repeated so many times) basically a reluctant hero quest to save the world. A sensitive, clever student who loses his love, is dragged back by his brother into hunting, loses his father, learns he has a dark side and is special and finally uses the dark side to conquer the evil and save the world. His brother ‘merely’ accompanies and helps him in the quest . Making the story deeper, richer but never really (except, briefly, for season 4 and part of 5) becoming the story itself. The fact that Dean, just as Han Solo, has become such a popular and powerful character, arguably more popular than Sam (Luke Skywalker), is, in fact, a miracle (well, Ackles).
Having read hundreds of post, let me just tell you, the sentiment expressed here by so many disappointed Deanfans is quite widespread. It seems that while everybody was preoccupied with Cas and Sam soulless state, Dean quietly and trying not to attract attention to himself (…when you think of it, it’s exactly Dean’s way…) melted into the background. The Show has been becoming more and more disconnect with its audience in regards to this character. And, absolutely, it’s the creators prerogative not to give a damn. But it’s also the fans prerogative to give a damn and express their opinions without being ‘convinced’ or forced to follow someone else’s perspective. Let me repeat. Different corners. Same playground. Same magic or lack of thereof. You can’t ‘reason’ anyone into loving someone. You can’t tell me what’s the right, reasonable, objective, fair way of loving something. All I can do is to tell you about my way of loving (or not loving) the Show and ask about yours. And certainly you’re not allowed to invalidate someone else’s feelings just because you happen to feel/think differently.
Thank you! You said this so well. It is the amount and nature of the complaints – it's a sea change. This is NOT a fan war. This is profound disatisfaction with how the show has portrayed a vital cog in the machine. There is nothing to argue about to change minds. It's a fact happening.
And yes,[Ackles]indeed.
I like this comment a lot, especially the part about there being three segments of fandom, all with their extremists and I also agree with one further up that says it's wrong to try and impose your opinion on others. I think the "buzz" about Supernatural in the on-line fandom has dried up as Dean's storylines have dried up since the end of S5. I think if this continues the show will limp along, with TPTB milking it for all it's worth until they can't milk it for anymore or one of the leads decides to move on, until it goes out with wimper. Sad, because when it WAS a more balanced show as concerns the brothers storylines, it was awesome(S4). I also believe that Jensen Ackles is the stronger actor of the two leads(sacrilege, I know) and that to keep him in the box of only being important to the story because he's Sam's brother is a sin and a large part of the dissatisfaction in the Dean corner of the fandom right now and easily fixable by the writers.
This "no one's objective, therefore everybody's opinion is valid" argument is not actually a strong one. Absolutely, there are different interpretations of a text, but some are more based on the text itself than others. I will admit my bias up front — I used to be a Dean-girl, but the constant whinging of other Dean-girls, particularly at times when Dean was by far the more favored character on the show, measured in just about any way you could measure it, proved to me that aside from crowning him Jesus and killing off Sam off-screen, there was nothing the show-runners could do to make that crowd happy.
All of you arguing that "hey, all this whining by Dean-fans must mean there's a real problem!" — yes, yes there is. The problem is you want the show to only be about Dean, and anything less than that makes you act like crazy people. Some of us liked Dean the way he was — a flawed, but still heroic character. You lot won't be satisfied until he's deified. Way to kill my love for Dean, you morons.
Okay then, let's separate these posts into which ones employ name-calling of other posters cuz that's a sign of real maturity and someone who's got a real sound argument. And many "extreme" Dean-haters in this fandom always find a way to slip it into their posts that they "used to be Dean-girls" before blah, blah, blah. Yeah right, and I used to be Samgirl before blah, blah, blah.
It seems to me that most of the posters here just want a meatier storyline for Dean(and Jensen)-nothing else, just that.
i would like to see the real God show up and tell cas that he can't have the job, then have death reap him. he said in the end, he will reap God too. he didnt say which one. i mean, come on, mankind is the real God's creation, i would like to think that it would stay that way.
Like a FEW other posters here, I saw nothing interesting coming out of ComicCon and I am feeling quite bored of Supernatural. A venue like ComicCon is a place to ramp up excitement amongst fans of the show, be they fans of monster-hunting, Dean, Sam, Cas, Bobby, Death or whatever. But so little was actually said, especially after Season 6 was not that well-received and saw ratings drop after the first few episodes and stay down. The story ideas for Season 7 seem retreads of the last so many seasons and there doesn't seem to be a good arc in place. Also, if Season 6 left cliffhangers for two main characters (Sam and Cas) and didn't have much of a storyline for the third (Dean) except emphasize a character trait (he's loving and protective towards Sam), then why not give out some hints about Cas' fate AND Dean's story next season in addition to Sam's for those fans who like Cas or Dean?
I have watched Supernatural since the beginning. I wasn't watching live by the middle of Season 6, and next season, with even more competition, I don't know whether I'll even watch full episodes on the DVR. I am saying this only because I am sure I am not the only one who feels jaded and bored by the show. The first few episodes have to hold audience interest, otherwise we'll see another bad drop in ratings as we did going from Episode 7 to Episode 8 of Season 6.
wow there has been some heated discussion on here i am afraid i to am a dean fan always have been but i do like sam as well i think its the diffrence s in the brothers that make them so good together i do think that the least sera gamble could have done is give us some spoilers about dean just so we have an idea were his characters going this season as said we know pretty much whats going on with sam and what he is going to be dealing with can understand why so many of you are a bit miffed at her clear dont give a dam attitude towards dean s character and i have noticed on the panels that jensen seems very cool towards her maybe he s not happy with her either anyway she needs to sought out any probs she may have because if she looses either of the brothers her shows over and i still think kripke should take his job back.